New Members & Forum Subscriptions

[Adam Brown]

I don't think anyone has suggested it is a con or that there is anything going on financially that is suspect, so it is hard to see why anyones blood is boiling......

 

Before I'm told that I too 'have made my point' and the insinuation is given that I should shut up. I would say Bill that I think we all wish 'The Team' well and are willing to give them ample time to get sorted out. However they've perhaps jumped the gun with the announcement of pay only from next May. It is highly laudable to give us all such long notice but it may have been better to wait until the house was in order.

 

I'll shut up now, as clearly (it feels) if you don't agree with those in charge then you shouldn't have a voice. Same old, same old.

[Ron Wood]

I wonder how many of the Non Paying Members belong to The Fairground Mercury, which  incidently cost £15 a year for 4 Magazines!!!!  Worth every penny in my mind. These moaners would have been the first to complain if this Site went bust.

[Bill Edwards]

14 minutes ago, Adam Brown said:

I'll shut up now, as clearly (it feels) if you don't agree with those in charge then you shouldn't have a voice. Same old, same old.

 

But I'm not in charge anymore and am as entitled as any other member to my opinion. I have no problem at all with members expressing an opinion, it's the repeating of it that I personally object to. Peter has made a point, the team have said they are looking into the matter, yet he keeps repeating it. 

 

The team have only had control of the forum for 72 hours - it feels like they are not being given the chance to sort things out and I don't think repeating the same concern is going to help.

 

I personally know all the members of the team, they are a great bunch and only have the best interests of the forum at heart, as did I. The team also know the back story:

 

Towards the end of last year forum donations were dropping below costs each month and I express my view that perhaps it was time to call it a day an close the forum. The team and I agreed that we'd restrict a small part of the forum to supporters in an attempt to keep the forum self supporting. As it was only a fiver a year and gave access to a unique resource we hoped that the majority of our regulars would get behind the forum. The backlash made me feel that that perhaps my first thought - closure - was the right decision. 

 

Again, when we removed the free access clause I wasn't prepared for the backlash over a fiver. You say that 

25 minutes ago, Adam Brown said:

I don't think anyone has suggested it is a con or that there is anything going on financially that is suspect, so it is hard to see why anyones blood is boiling......

I am 100% honest, I will go out of my way to ensure that everything is fair and the vast majority of members - those that know me, know that when I say we don't make a profit then WE DON'T. When people say that they want to see accounts before donating, I see an inference (rightly or wrongly) that I'm not being believed and that was a kick in the teeth for me.

 

On 24th April I announced to the forum panel (now the team) that I WAS CLOSING THE FORUM. My plan was

Quote

My current plan is:- I've removed all links to donating and becoming a supporter. I will not accept anymore donations. In fairness to those who have contributed, the forum will be available for ONE YEAR, and although I don't currently have exact figures, a rough tot up shows there is sufficient in the kitty to pay the bills for a year. Those that are currently supporters will have their supporter access extended till close and will continue to have full access even after their current donation expires. Those that have't donated won't be able to and won't be able to access the rides list.

 

The Forum Panel battled against my wishes and begged for a chance to keep the forum available for YOU, the members. I wasn't convinced, but thought that it was worth one last try. The conditions I put on handing over control were (1) No current supporter would be financially disadvantaged by the change and they were to get all they'd paid for for the duration of their current donation and (2) Whilst I would help with technical matters during the hand over, I was to play no further part in Moderating, Policy decisions etc.

 

The forum panel were extremely keen to make the forum a better place, to ensure that it was self supporting and available for everyone.

 

The current plan to make the forum totally subscriber was an excellent idea (in my opinion), but I had no input in the discussion or decision. I was aware of the final plan and the reasons behind it and it made sense. Given the flack the Panel have had over the past couple of days, the obstacles that are being put in their way - seemingly just for the sake of an argument, hindsight kicked in again and I wish I'd refused their take over and just closed the forum. The panel are an excellent bunch of people who just want the best for the forum and it's members, yet the stick they've taken this week has made me feel guilty that I've put them in that position. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if, given their entirely honorable intentions and the unnecessary backlash they've received they don't decide to call it a day.

[Adam Brown]

I'll leave what I've said where it is. I don't see obstacles in particular for the the new team. I sincerely wish them well. I haven't seen any particular backlash either......

 

I have certainly not asked anything for the sake of an argument. 

 

If you've got a bit prickly over questions about money I think you've misread what people are asking. The people in charge (as I am with other organisations) always have targets pinned to their backs, thick skin is the only way to live with all that gets thrown your way. I applaud what you've done in the past with this place and am glad you let it have a second chance with the new management.

 

I'm involved with the running of various clubs and charities, I know the standards they work to (because in some cases they have to). My questions over the funds here were out of curiosity in part. Does it cost £100 a month to keep it going, £1,000 a month? I don't know. I'm also in business (as are others on here). If numbers were known some may wish to contribute 

 

I'm not arguing with paying £10. I'm just enquiring as to the mechanics of it, and as previously stated am more than happy to wait a few months for things to develop

 

You won't want my advice Bill, but chill, relax and stop taking it all to heart. Most of us respect you for what you've achieved here for so long on your own, enjoy retirement and try not to take innocent questions as subtle jabs  

 

 

[Bill Edwards]

There has been a lot going on behind the scenes with obstacles, backlash etc. The problem is a lot bigger that that which as been publically posted.

 

7 minutes ago, Adam Brown said:

You won't want my advice Bill, but chill, relax and stop taking it all to heart. Most of us respect you for what you've achieved here for so long on your own, enjoy retirement and try not to take innocent questions as subtle jabs

 

Unfortunately that is how I am - I do take things to heart. I've tried to chill and relax, but it just isn't me and has played a big part in my decision to hand over the forum!

[Roger Peatman]

Reading through this thread, it is clear that there are differing opinions on the subject of Forum subscriptions.
Members have excercised their right to voice these opinions without fear of censorship or retribution, whilst respecting the general rules of the Forum.
This freedom of expression and choice also extends to the individual when it comes to deciding whether or not to make a financial contribution.
I would hope that those members who do contribute feel that, not only are they getting access to a fantastic resource, which is what this forum offers,but also that they are helping to ensure its very existance and long term future.

[WFMJF]

It's less than 20p a week and more than worth it I think. I find the resource really useful and as long as people still contribute it will be worth it. Bill has done a great job and I am sure the new team will carry on the good work. 👍

[Simon Deery]

It is time that everyone accepts these new rules and at least gives them a chance. I for one would be absolutely devastated if this forum were to close and it would have a very detrimental influence on the hobby. I am sure that most people on here would feel the same.

When all the other costs of this hobby are added up including subscriptions to Mercury, World's Fair etc, fuel travelling to fairs, money spent on the fair, photo printing, the list goes on, I don't begrudge paying a tenner per year for the opportunity to share my interests with like minded people and see their photos and read reports. The rides list alone is a brilliant asset and without that I would be lost.

Please don't let strong views damage the morale of those who have taken what appears to be a thankless task in running this site. Bill spent twenty years doing something that a lot of us could either never have the time to commit to or the energy to keep it running. When it comes to money lets argue over why VAT is still at 20% or why certain councils are charging showmen top rate rents and not allowing them to put up billboards.

To those now managing this forum I wish you every success and thank you for not allowing it to close down. To Bill, thank you for keeping patience throughout all the moans and groans when you only had best intentions at heart. 

As someone who also takes things to heart I would have caved into the negativity long ago. Time to move forward.

[Ormester101]

7 hours ago, Steve Barton said:

You say that £5 is more than adequate  yet we have had a £5 option for a while now and still many Members chose not to pay that yourself included. Maybe if more Members had taken up the £5 option when it was available we might not be doing what we are doing now. If it wasn't  for what Bill and the Forum Supporters have done over the years to fund this Forum we wouldn't be having this discussion today as the Forum would of closed a long time ago. This is my point of view as a long time Member & Supporter .

in the world of  net should  we this day and age  be paying  surely adverting is a way  most forums extra  make money  im   saying is 10 pound is a lot if you dont  get  a  bonus  like merchandise etc its  a great site but introducing a big charge  will make it exclusive  and  new members  wont pay .

[Daniel Steele]

tenner subscription do we get membership badge, hat, car sticker and most importantly a xmas dinner???

i know other membership clubs do 🤣🤣🤣

Edited May 3, 2018 by Daniel Steele

[Eddie Kelly]

I subscibe much more than £10 per annum to receive a certain industry trade paper that I have been reading for much longer than this forum has existed. Delivered once a week it contains reports of fairs held some weeks (rarely the previous) & occasionaly some months earlier. It advertises a few upcoming fairs & ground available for attractions at even fewer of these fairs. It contains many advertisements regarding personalities & associated industry services but not much these days regarding the nuts & bolts of the hobby. Several pages are devoted to preservation & rallying with a little fairground news included but most importantly the guild publish their notices with information not available anywhere else. During recent years the competition from other sources particularly facebook forums have dramatically reduced much of the non editorial content particularly industry advertising. At no time during my fifty odd years of reading and subscribing to this organ have I been informed of its financial status, how the subscription or purchase revenue has been allocated or appropriated or how any surplus is distributed. Likewise no member of the several editorial teams have invited me to express an opinion as to policy either editorial or financial nor I suspect have any other members of this group or those members who contribute articles to the newspaper many of whom I understand do so with little or no net benefit to themselves. Unsurprisingly I have never read any letter to the paper or comment on its website or facebook page regarding the need to be presented with a statement of income or expenditure every time subscriptions are renewed or whenever a copy is purchased from a newsagent but I suspect many of the members on this forum purchase the 'Worlds Fair' without one moments thought regarding the cost of its production & ongoing finance!

[Bill Edwards]

16 minutes ago, Eddie Kelly said:

I subscibe much more than £10 per annum to receive a certain industry trade paper that I have been reading for much longer than this forum has existed. Delivered once a week it contains reports of fairs held some weeks (rarely the previous) & occasionaly some months earlier. It advertises a few upcoming fairs & ground available for attractions at even fewer of these fairs. It contains many advertisements regarding personalities & associated industry services but not much these days regarding the nuts & bolts of the hobby. Several pages are devoted to preservation & rallying with a little fairground news included but most importantly the guild publish their notices with information not available anywhere else. During recent years the competition from other sources particularly facebook forums have dramatically reduced much of the non editorial content particularly industry advertising. At no time during my fifty odd years of reading and subscribing to this organ have I been informed of its financial status, how the subscription or purchase revenue has been allocated or appropriated or how any surplus is distributed. Likewise no member of the several editorial teams have invited me to express an opinion as to policy either editorial or financial nor I suspect have any other members of this group or those members who contribute articles to the newspaper many of whom I understand do so with little or no net benefit to themselves. Unsurprisingly I have never read any letter to the paper or comment on its website or facebook page regarding the need to be presented with a statement of income or expenditure every time subscriptions are renewed or whenever a copy is purchased from a newsagent but I suspect many of the members on this forum purchase the 'Worlds Fair' without one moments thought regarding the cost of its production & ongoing finance!

 

Pure brilliance - a voice of common sense!

[Terry Hutton]

I made a "donation" of £20 last November. Do you want me to pay £10 now to become a member or should I wait until next November and become a member then?  I'm not worried either way whatever is easier for you.

 

Terry Hutton

[The Team]

Just now, Terry Hutton said:

I made a "donation" of £20 last November. Do you want me to pay £10 now to become a member or should I wait until next November and become a member then?  I'm not worried either way whatever is easier for you.

 

Terry Hutton

 

Terry,

Many thanks for your donation of £20 last November.  Your Supporter status lasts for a year.  The good news is this November your renewal premium will be £10 as we've standardised subscriptions.  Having said that you can, if you wish, pay more!!

[Peter van der Knaap]

4 hours ago, Eddie Kelly said:

I subscibe much more than £10 per annum to receive a certain industry trade paper that I have been reading for much longer than this forum has existed. Delivered once a week it contains reports of fairs held some weeks (rarely the previous) & occasionaly some months earlier. It advertises a few upcoming fairs & ground available for attractions at even fewer of these fairs. It contains many advertisements regarding personalities & associated industry services but not much these days regarding the nuts & bolts of the hobby. Several pages are devoted to preservation & rallying with a little fairground news included but most importantly the guild publish their notices with information not available anywhere else. During recent years the competition from other sources particularly facebook forums have dramatically reduced much of the non editorial content particularly industry advertising. At no time during my fifty odd years of reading and subscribing to this organ have I been informed of its financial status, how the subscription or purchase revenue has been allocated or appropriated or how any surplus is distributed. Likewise no member of the several editorial teams have invited me to express an opinion as to policy either editorial or financial nor I suspect have any other members of this group or those members who contribute articles to the newspaper many of whom I understand do so with little or no net benefit to themselves. Unsurprisingly I have never read any letter to the paper or comment on its website or facebook page regarding the need to be presented with a statement of income or expenditure every time subscriptions are renewed or whenever a copy is purchased from a newsagent but I suspect many of the members on this forum purchase the 'Worlds Fair' without one moments thought regarding the cost of its production & ongoing finance!

 

There is one big difference between a paper and a forum. The first has it's own staff who provide the content of the paper, while the latter one depends on the members to provide content. Also, a paper is usually full of advertisements to cover the costs. On this forum, one doesn't see advertising a lot. Why not? If costs are that much that you want members to pay for a subscription, you should first have looked for parties who might be very interested in advertising on this forums. You seem to want to keep everything into your own hands and that isn't a good idea. Simply ask a professional party to cover forum costs and in return let them handle the advertising on this forum. That's the way most funfair forums on the continent handle the issue of the costs involved...

[The Team]

Thanks for the advice Peter, but I think we'll continue to run the Forum the way the majority of our members want us to. - we are very strong advocates of democracy here !!

[Cillian Mongain]

I personally think that £10 is fair. (Just paid)

I don't post much, but do enjoy reading the reviews and topics.

Keep up the good work

[Bill Edwards]

5 hours ago, Peter van der Knaap said:

 

There is one big difference between a paper and a forum. The first has it's own staff who provide the content of the paper, while the latter one depends on the members to provide content. Also, a paper is usually full of advertisements to cover the costs. On this forum, one doesn't see advertising a lot. Why not? If costs are that much that you want members to pay for a subscription, you should first have looked for parties who might be very interested in advertising on this forums. You seem to want to keep everything into your own hands and that isn't a good idea. Simply ask a professional party to cover forum costs and in return let them handle the advertising on this forum. That's the way most funfair forums on the continent handle the issue of the costs involved...

 

Yawn, can't you find something else to moan about? You've made your point, the panel are looking into it. It's getting really BORING NOW!"

[Eddie Kelly]

6 hours ago, Peter van der Knaap said:

 

There is one big difference between a paper and a forum. The first has it's own staff who provide the content of the paper, while the latter one depends on the members to provide content. Also, a paper is usually full of advertisements to cover the costs. On this forum, one doesn't see advertising a lot. Why not? If costs are that much that you want members to pay for a subscription, you should first have looked for parties who might be very interested in advertising on this forums. You seem to want to keep everything into your own hands and that isn't a good idea. Simply ask a professional party to cover forum costs and in return let them handle the advertising on this forum. That's the way most funfair forums on the continent handle the issue of the costs involved...

You are obviously not familiar with how the Worlds Fair sources & pays for its editorial content nor its loss of advertising to other media in recent years and as a result not really in any position to make an objective comparison. Your intriguing comment about employing professionals to cover forum costs raises an obvious question you appear to have overlooked; who will pay the professionals costs and how will such costs be raised? 

[harry m]

5 hours ago, Peter van der Knaap said:

 

There is one big difference between a paper and a forum. The first has it's own staff who provide the content of the paper, while the latter one depends on the members to provide content. Also, a paper is usually full of advertisements to cover the costs. On this forum, one doesn't see advertising a lot. Why not? If costs are that much that you want members to pay for a subscription, you should first have looked for parties who might be very interested in advertising on this forums. You seem to want to keep everything into your own hands and that isn't a good idea. Simply ask a professional party to cover forum costs and in return let them handle the advertising on this forum. That's the way most funfair forums on the continent handle the issue of the costs involved...

 

 Peter

 

There IS one big difference between a paper and a forum, and that is, The paper is a for profit business, this forum isn't. The forum is for enthusiasts of Fun Fair and Fun fair related items.

It was originally set up by an enthusiast for other enthusiasts to discuss their interest, It has managed for many years without the need for major advertising, although on occasions with little in the way of donations to continue it.

 

No one wants to see lots of banners and unrelated items for sale all over their screens, when they've come here to look at Fairground news, pictures, reports, stories.

Whilst the forum is " in our own hands" , we have control. And whilst we have control we can limit everything to be ONLY Fun fair related. 

I understand your points about European sites using advertising , but the UK Fun Fair industry is a much smaller scale in comparison, what works on the Continent doesn't always work in the UK. I think Brexit is probably the best example of that.

 

The New Membership / Subscription cost is SOLELY about the sites survival and NOTHING ELSE. Its a "Not For Profit " forum, it's a place purely for Enthusiasts to gather and discuss.

Unfortunately the costs involved to operate it never go down and have to be covered every month and it's for this reason alone we came to this decision. I think back to all the other sites/forums i was a member of that were free, and sadly,. I cant think of one good one that still exists.

 

Yes, it would be nice if it was free, and it would of been fantastic if we could of kept it free, but sadly that's not the case.

 

 

 

[Paul Masters]

Wish Bill and the team well for the future , for me the candle burnt out long ago , too many chefs and all that , has been wonderful over the years though , some interesting discussions! Great info ,wonderful pictures ,one has too only look though at all the showmen that have left the site over past couple of years and wonder why when their quite active on Facebook ! just my opinion and it’s never accounted for much lol  All the best long may the forum continue ,just not for me cheers 

[Roger Peatman]

4 minutes ago, Paul Cobbler said:

Wish Bill and the team well for the future , for me the candle burnt out long ago , too many chefs and all that , has been wonderful over the years though , some interesting discussions! Great info ,wonderful pictures ,one has too only look though at all the showmen that have left the site over past couple of years and wonder why when their quite active on Facebook ! just my opinion and it’s never accounted for much lol  All the best long may the forum continue ,just not for me cheers 

 

A bit of a double edged comment, but I appreciate your straightforward honesty  and well- wishes for the future - you can always reconsider !

[Benjy Dale]

I like the fact that you can use PayPal.  I'm not young by a long stretch and I find it's easy, plus I normally have a bit of money kicking about in there, and £10 a year isn't much at all for the main fairground forum on the internet.

 

Those who mentioned about using cheques really ought to consider switching to electronic options like PayPal, internet banking or Google / Apple Pay.  This is because internet usage in the UK has been mainstream since 1998, so 20 years!  Plus, the UK is going to phase out cheques in the next few years.

[Simon Deery]

Really makes me laugh (or grimace should I say) when the Facebook argument pops up its head. Let's get something clear shall we, this site is NOT a second fiddle competitor to Facebook. They are two completely different things so stop comparing something that shouldn't be compared.

This site operates with rules and encourages people to behave like civilised humans. Facebook is a free for all where anything goes, rumour included.

Does Facebook have a comprehensive rides list? No. Does it have everything centred in one place with a system to prevent non enthusiasts posting troll like comments and starting trouble? No.

It is a pathetic gadget for people to feel wanted and whilst people here slag off the team for asking for contributions to keep things moving, how many of them couldn't care less about what is happening to their personal data and security on Facebook? They will defend the crooked operations of that site because they would rather accept the failings than lose their "toy". Yet the team ask for money to sustain the site and pay the bills and they are accused of being unreasonable!

Time to get things in perspective. And before im mobbed for daring to speak against the dearly beloved Facebook I have heard all the counter arguments before so save your energy. Mr Zuckerberg is a man that will never be harvesting my data at the expense of me living a fake celebrity tell all lifestyle.

[Martin]

I originally questioned the move and far as I'm concerned now I'm happy to go along with what The Team decide as along it is in the best interest for the members. Having said that though it only seems a small proportion of the membership have expressed their views so far. What do the silent majority of the active membership feel about the membership changes? At the end of the day - Do we use this forum or lose it?

 

Everyone please bear in mind, we've got fantastic resources here for both rides, attractions and transport. We've got some fascinating old going projects such as @John Fahy has been updating us regularly.