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Roger Peatman    3,360
Roger Peatman
4 hours ago, Adam Brown said:

 

 

This forum is a great resource, probably one worth paying for.

 

 

I'm glad you've said that Adam - hopefully a few more members will echo your thoughts.

We look forward to receiving your subscription http://www.fun-fairs.co.uk/subscriptions/ 

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Chris Allen    57
Chris Allen
18 hours ago, harry monk said:

Don't panic anyone, the Photo section isn't going or disappearing.

 

It's as relevant to some members as the Rides list is to others.

 

 Just a quick one Harry,I mentioned earlier in this thread about a massive 1970s vintage photo collection from a former member,  i think his name was Tony from Leeds, can you clarify if these photos are gone forever, or is there anyway we could access them again in the future perhaps.

Edited by Chris Allen

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Adam Brown    89
Adam Brown
3 hours ago, Roger Peatman said:

 

I'm glad you've said that Adam - hopefully a few more members will echo your thoughts.

We look forward to receiving your subscription http://www.fun-fairs.co.uk/subscriptions/ 

 

As I said in my post, which you have cut a snippet from, when there is a basic set of numbers to view I will consider subscribing. I will not blindly throw money into the dark. This is not a business I am buying something from, like all other clubs I am a member of I expect to see some form of accounts. Also in seeing such things, suggestions for cheaper alternatives often make themselves known.

 

What is so hard about revealing what the Forum costs to run and what subscriptions currently bring in? This isn't ICI Chemicals, basic fag packet numbers would be sufficient.

 

Also putting pressure publicly on individuals to part with money is really poor form. Everyone can see that I am not currently a paying supporter - I've never pretended any differently. I'd like to see this place thrive but I have put my views across (as requested by you and your team) on this topic in a constructive manner. Please show me the same respect as I've shown you.

Edited by Adam Brown

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Peter van der Knaap    1,868
Peter van der Knaap
3 hours ago, Adam Brown said:

 

As I said in my post, which you have cut a snippet from, when there is a basic set of numbers to view I will consider subscribing. I will not blindly throw money into the dark. This is not a business I am buying something from, like all other clubs I am a member of I expect to see some form of accounts. Also in seeing such things, suggestions for cheaper alternatives often make themselves known.

 

What is so hard about revealing what the Forum costs to run and what subscriptions currently bring in? This isn't ICI Chemicals, basic fag packet numbers would be sufficient.

 

Also putting pressure publicly on individuals to part with money is really poor form. Everyone can see that I am not currently a paying supporter - I've never pretended any differently. I'd like to see this place thrive but I have put my views across (as requested by you and your team) on this topic in a constructive manner. Please show me the same respect as I've shown you.

 

I agree totally. Become transparent financially and I will pay my membership.

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harry monk    885
harry monk

@Chris Allen

 

Sorry, no. Unfortunately they have been removed due to inactivity in that forum as part of the storage cost savings.

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The Team    327
The Team

We are NOT going to publish our accounts and that matter is now closed.

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harry monk    885
harry monk
12 hours ago, Adam Brown said:

 

It is true that for commercial publications one does pay and receive the goods. There is an understanding that the company is making money. They make it by exchanging their goods or services for your cash. But we're NOT a company, we're NOT trying to make cash, we're NOT selling a service, we're NOT sending you goods. We ask for £5 to help with the 'month to month' running costs to KEEP ATFOTF ALIVE for EVERYBODY'S benefit.

 

The forum is much more akin to the FAGB or the FS, a club run by enthusiasts. Both of those have annual accounts so as the members (whom ultimately are in charge) can see where the money is spent and ask relevant questions. I've seen some excellent results at AGMs from such questions leading to cost reductions. 

No, the forum is NOT akin to FAGB or FS, an example being: - Two of them are Club and Magazine based, the other, US, is internet based.

I think you're comparing Apples with Pears with your analogy.

FAGB £15 a year for membership - club and magazine based

Fairground Society £15 a year for membership. - club and magazine based

ATFOTF - £5 a year for membership Internet based

I think you're comparing Apples with Pears with

 

It would create severe difficulty for an internet based item to hold an AGM don't you agree?

We created a Topic asking for suggestions and ideas for cost cutting ideas, but not too many have responded, so what would be the point of an AGM?

 

It isn't difficult. It is a logical request. It is boggling that such a request has lead to the resignation of the forums founder and continued silence on the subject.

Sorry, but I'm at a loss to know where you're coming from with this? Where has it been said, stated, written that Bill Edwards resigned from the Forum due to Finance questions or Accounts? For your benefit, here's a link to Bill's announcement of his resignation and his reasons why

This forum is a great resource, probably one worth paying for. But in exchange for that I do not think it is unfair to ask for transparency - which is good for all sides.

 

This being the internet and a lot of internet content being free (even if usually a bit naff) you are going to probably have to that extra mile to persuade people to cough up.

Here's how it is,

We (The Team) are a group of enthusiasts who wanted to keep this forum going after Bill's hard work over many years, he kindly allowed us to do so.

It IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN run as a 'not for profit' forum for enthusiasts to discuss Funfair matters in relation to their hobby. We all go to work to earn a living, not live off the proceeds of a forum! i don't know if that's how you've been viewing the situation all this time?

It's not free to run and host a forum on the Internet, surprisingly it DOES cost money. HOWEVER, it IS free for everyone to browse and partake in the majority of the site

If any of The Team were wealthy, they'd probably  pay all the running costs for the site to keep it alive, sadly none of the Team are wealthy enough to do that.

 

My question to you is, tell me of any other Forum on the web that publishes accounts and costs? I don't know of any! Why do you feel the need to ask us to do so ?

IF we were charging  > £15 for membership, i could probably understand better the reason for asking.

 

My own personal opinion is that, Why should we publish income and outcome figures so that others can go and set up their own opposition Funfair forum ?

Why do some individuals feel the need to question what we're doing (trying to keep a forum alive for ALL enthusiast of our hobby) It's not as if any of us get any monetary reward for it, only the pleasure of keeping a long established site alive for OTHERS benefit, and believe me, there's a lot more to running a forum than you'd think, it IS time consuming.

  

No-one's forcing anyone to pay anything to be on here, but the Rides list was made a members only forum as a reward/bonus for their support and donation(s).

If you're unhappy that we have not given figures, that's your choice, no biggie

If you choose NOT to become a 'paid member', again that's fine, we don't have an issue there either, you're still welcome to participate on the forum.

The fact this is all over £5 a year does seem a little perplexing to me

 

Regards

Harry

 

I will add that, following our request for suggestions in this Topic , I'm grateful for your response/comments in here though.

 

A Note in general for Everyone - The matter of Accounts is NOW closed and NOT up for discussion!

 

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Ian Cant    1,038
Ian Cant

Up until recently I have not been a paid member.

 

My opinion was that I have contributed in various ways to this forum over the years with photos, posts, comments reports etc and that was enough. 

 

However I am a supporter of this forum and much prefer this over Facebook. The format, the structure and the resource are all great and a credit to all have been involved in its existence. 

 

Once concerned that the forum may struggle in the future and restricted access to the ride list (which I have contributed to) I decided to dip my hand in my pocket to help and in some respect I hope people will do the same.

 

However I seem to be in the minority here too as I can’t understand the reluctantance to give an simple overview of the finances?

 

Surely transparency breeds trust and with trust people will be happier to part with their money.

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harry monk    885
harry monk

Ian

Thank you for your support.

I'll say 'benefit of the doubt' to you for mentioning finances on the basis that you would of been writing your post while I posted The matter of Accounts is NOW closed and NOT up for discussion! "

Thanks

Harry

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Gary Witcomb    14,019
Gary Witcomb

OK we are getting no ware fast here, so can we please get back to the topic in hand , it is a fact that the Forum has limited funds so 1 of 3 things is going  to happen, as stated doing nothing is not an option, so please if you have any sensible workable suggestions please speak up, it will be no good you moaning after the event 

 

1 we need to raise funds to allow the ever increasing amount of photos we store  HOW ??

Encourage more supporters (Difficult) ??

Increase Supporters Contributions (unfair) ??

Have paid adverts, i don't believe we have enough traffic to make this pay ??

 

Lets assume we cant raise more funds, that mean storage of photo will have to suffer

 

we will have to restrict the amount of photos we can hold on the forum  we cant just keep adding photos as it cost more and more each month !!

 

We Could

 

By reducing the number of photos we allow members to post - do we allow supporters to post more than non supporters  ?? 

 

Do we cap the total photos to each post ?? / Do we Stop Arti Farti / Angled  photos and go back to the strict days

 

Do we shut down photo forums Like  off topic / Circus / International ?? 

 

Do we cut back on duplicate photos in the ride listing,  we have duplicates in the ride listing so they can have likes attached ??

 

Do we have to have multiple shots of Art work attached to ride listings ?? when its clearly on show in the full ride shot ??

Do we go back to the smaller photos on the forum to save money (was it 600 x 400) cant remember ??

 

3  We Don,t raise more funds, we Don't control photo storage then we Cant pay the bills, then you go to log on and it will be GONE

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Andy H    11,193
Andy H

Thank you Owain, you have hit the nail bang on for me, it's about managing your photo sets and thinking do I really need post all of my memory card and using captions goes along way to making a set more informative, I understand some members may not know all the attractions but leave a question mark and someone will help.

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John Garton    27
John Garton

This private group of individuals is not a publicly funded organisation, the Team doesn't have to be fair, democratic, open or transparent, I cannot understand why you have not simply got rid of the keyboard warriors months ago.

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Adam Brown    89
Adam Brown

Fair enough you've made your decision and now talking about it is banned. I'll live with it, though I do have answers to most of your points, I'd be happy to discuss by PM if you are interested in discussion on the issue in a private manner.

 

I do think the idea of someone seeing you accounts and setting up an rival forum is laughable. It's been tried previously at least once that I can recall and it didn't work. There simply aren't enough people to fuel two forums, and indeed at times this one struggles.

 

I haven't questioned the intentions of what The Team are doing at any point. The manner of doing it in one particular area is the only thing I disagree with (you asked for suggestions).

 

However you keeping asking essentially the same question. "How do we pay for this".

 

The equation has three points

 

1) The costs of running the forum as is

Reasonably it is safe to assume you've looked in depth at this time and again and there are no cost savings available that preserve things as they are. Nobody wants things to change.

 

2) The way the forum is Managed

An improvement on the old system and generally for the good. Sticking points around transparency but the choice is made. 

 

3) The attitude of the majority of non paying members.

Which falls into three categories A) Those who without black and white understanding will always assume things'll resolve themselves. B ) Those who want greater understanding of how it all works. C) Those who don't really care or are just very casual users and will just go elsewhere if this ceases to be.

 

Something has to change. Nobody wants to change Point 1. Point 2 has changed to a degree (topic now closed :P ) A & B within Point 3 could be brought around with difficulty if Point 2 changed. Those in catergory C are probably a majority of users.

 

The bigger question for The Team is if every actively posting user - more than 20 posts per year paid the £5 where would that put the finances. Nowhere near where they need to be I suspect. A plan needs to be made for the most pessimistic assessment of active users, not the thousands registered. How do those numbers stack up? and what would the annual charge rise to taking that into account?

 

For the record of those fed up with me and who have no idea who I am. I'm not a keyboard warrior. I run a successful business and have been both a committee member of various clubs, and a trustee of a charity for many years now. I've been a fairground enthusiast since I was very small, and with my father have a collections of artwork, stalls, and vehicles, like many of you I have many showman who are friends. I'm not some

[ person ] with a can of red bull, a computer, and an attitude. I've been asking what I've been asking because I do care about this forum and wish it to continue, but the businessman / trustee / committee man in me won't let me do it blindly. 

 

That said I've been answered (partially) and I'll shut up now. I won't pay for membership under the current circumstances, I hope to continue to enjoy whatever elements of the forum remain free for as long as they do or the forum survives. I can enjoy facebook for free with little grief and no requests for money.

Edited by harry monk
removed offensive word and relaced

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harry monk    885
harry monk

@Adam Brown Iv'e edited 1 word in your post above and replaced it with the word in brackets.

 

I will respond to your post when I can sit at a Computer later.

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harry monk    885
harry monk
10 hours ago, Adam Brown said:

Fair enough you've made your decision and now talking about it is banned. I'll live with it, though I do have answers to most of your points, I'd be happy to discuss by PM if you are interested in discussion on the issue in a private manner.  Because we ARE open and transparent there's no need to do anything by PM. if its related and is on topic, in here is fine for all to see.

 

I do think the idea of someone seeing you accounts and setting up an rival forum is laughable. It's been tried previously at least once that I can recall and it didn't work. There simply aren't enough people to fuel two forums, and indeed at times this one struggles. IF I asked to see your Business accounts, then opened a similar business in direct competition next door to your premises, would you be laughing then ? I'd guess probably not or an even closer comparison, If I came into your sales outlet to buy an item valued at £5, and asked to see your books,accounts, financial statements before I purchased the £5 item, what would you say to me ? (remember not to swear in the forum) I guess you'd politely tell me where to go and where to stick my £5 in fewer words wouldn't you ? be honest when answering this 😉

 

I haven't questioned the intentions of what The Team are doing at any point. The manner of doing it in one particular area is the only thing I disagree with (you asked for suggestions). No one has thought or suggested that you are questioning the intentions of any of us, Yes,we asked for suggestions and that's why i am replying to you.

 

However you keeping asking essentially the same question. "How do we pay for this". On this occasion, it isn't essentially the same question, the question IS ,

"Photo Storage - Suggestions Please"

If anyone has any suggestions, we would be happy to consider them, unfortunately doing nothing won't be an option in a couple of months. We will explore advertising / sponsorship, but other suggestions would be appreciated. 

The OP did say 'we need to EITHER up our income or manage our storage" then it went on to ask for suggestions. It DIDN'T ask for money or how to pay for anything !  It actually went off topic when it got turned into the £5 membership !

The equation has three points

 

1) The costs of running the forum as is

Reasonably it is safe to assume you've looked in depth at this time and again and there are no cost savings available that preserve things as they are. Nobody wants things to change.

There are some minor ones, but they would be detrimental to the quality of the site and what's available to see for free.

2) The way the forum is Managed

An improvement on the old system and generally for the good. Sticking points around transparency but the choice is made.  Glad you see it that way, it means what we've done is working. As for the transparency part, It seems we need to agree to disagree on that

 

3) The attitude of the majority of non paying members.

Which falls into three categories A) Those who without black and white understanding will always assume things'll resolve themselves. B ) Those who want greater understanding of how it all works. C) Those who don't really care or are just very casual users and will just go elsewhere if this ceases to be.

 

Something has to change. Nobody wants to change Point 1. Point 2 has changed to a degree (topic now closed :P ) A & B within Point 3 could be brought around with difficulty if Point 2 changed. Those in catergory C are probably a majority of users.

I can't say why members don't want to be a non-paying member, that's not for me to do or assume.

The bigger question for The Team is if every actively posting user - more than 20 posts per year paid the £5 where would that put the finances. Nowhere near where they need to be I suspect. A plan needs to be made for the most pessimistic assessment of active users, not the thousands registered. How do those numbers stack up? and what would the annual charge rise to taking that into account? - I'll answer this by saying I (personally) will not discuss anything related to the finance or accounts as this would lead to other questions about finances and accounts ( not necessarily from yourself). You have some leading questions in there ! You'll also note  I'm answering this as myself and not as

The Team

 

For the record of those fed up with me and who have no idea who I am. I'm not a keyboard warrior. I run a successful business and have been both a committee member of various clubs, and a trustee of a charity for many years now. I've been a fairground enthusiast since I was very small, and with my father have a collections of artwork, stalls, and vehicles, like many of you I have many showman who are friends. I'm not some

[ person ] with a can of red bull, a computer, and an attitude. I've been asking what I've been asking because I do care about this forum and wish it to continue, but the businessman / trustee / committee man in me won't let me do it blindly. Firstly,  No one is questioning you or your ways or stereotyping you. I do think your businessman / trustee / committee man background is probably holding you back from enjoying what this forum is all about, a site for our hobby and similar minded enthusiasts, Its not a business, committee or with trustees, but an internet forum for discussion of fairground related items. nothing else or more. 

We asked for your suggestions to involve you ( Members) in making the forum a better place for you all to enjoy, it would of been easy for the rest of the team and I to sort it out ourselves and just implement any changes we thought of without asking the membership for any input.  

 

That said I've been answered (partially) and I'll shut up now. I won't pay for membership under the current circumstances, I hope to continue to enjoy whatever elements of the forum remain free for as long as they do or the forum survives. I can enjoy facebook for free with little grief and no requests for money.

I accept your point regarding not paying for membership... i did this a long time ago to be honest, I'm sure many parts of the Forum will remain free, as mentioned before, The Team would LOVE to be able to make every element of the forum free for ALL to enjoy. The forum will survive, don't worry about that, even if we have to prop it up with our own money, like Bill did for years.

Your final line does suggest to me that you prefer FB to this forum anyway, so please enjoy FB without any requests for money.

If we didn't need some financial support ........ WE WOULDN'T BE ASKING FOR ANY !

Thank you

harry

 

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John Garton    27
John Garton

Suggestion for the Team, in the same way that we have a "Like" button could a "Hate" button be added?

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Roger Peatman    3,360
Roger Peatman
1 hour ago, John Garton said:

Suggestion for the Team, in the same way that we have a "Like" button could a "Hate" button be added?

 

This has been discussed before, and it was decided that a "Sad" button would be more appropriate for members to express their opinions about a post.

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Steve Barton    11,626
Steve Barton
8 hours ago, John Garton said:

 Suggestion for the Team, in the same way that we have a "Like" button could a "Hate" button be added?

The trouble is there are three or four Members who's only contribution to this Forum is to use the like button when someone posts negative comments about the Forum and use the sad face button when the Team or a Member of the Team suggests something so more than likely they'd make more use of a Hate button than most of the Supporters and other Members put together and if another person did happen to use the Hate button these few Members would more than likely claim "what an unfriendly place this Forum is" .  😉  What baffles me why they are still Members. 😉 

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Bill Edwards    625
Bill Edwards
9 hours ago, John Garton said:

Suggestion for the Team, in the same way that we have a "Like" button could a "Hate" button be added?

 

20 minutes ago, Steve Barton said:

The trouble is there are three or four Members who's only contribution to this Forum is to use the like button when someone posts negative comments about the Forum and use the sad face button when the Team or a Member of the Team suggests something so more than likely they'd make more use of a Hate button than most of the Supporters and other Members put together and if another person did happen to use the Hate button these few Members would more than likely claim "what an unfriendly place this Forum is" .  😉  What baffles me why they are still Members. 😉 

 

I don't like the word "hate" - it's a bit strong. "Dislike"? Perhaps a "Dislike" button just for forum supporters use? Less likely to be misused????

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Steve Barton    11,626
Steve Barton
40 minutes ago, Bill Edwards said:

I don't like the word "hate" - it's a bit strong. "Dislike"? Perhaps a "Dislike" button just for forum supporters use? Less likely to be misused????

Yes got to agree dislike does sound better I like the idea of Supporter only use button. Maybe John & Bill you both  could repost your ideas in the Supporters Forum and see what others think.

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Gary Witcomb    14,019
Gary Witcomb
1 minute ago, Steve Barton said:

Yes got to agree dislike does sound better I like the idea of Supporter only use button. Maybe John & Bill you both  could repost your ideas in the Supporters Forum and see what others think.

 

or has my mother told me when i was a child if you cant say anything nice don't say anything at all 

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Roger Peatman    3,360
Roger Peatman

I can't see any need to change the current reaction buttons- again, we spent a lot of time in the past debating this very subject, and that resulted in what we now have in place.

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Gary Witcomb    14,019
Gary Witcomb
9 minutes ago, Roger Peatman said:

I can't see any need to change the current reaction buttons- again, we spent a lot of time in the past debating this very subject, and that resulted in what we now have in place.

 

 

it would not benefit the forum so why would we want this !!

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John Garton    27
John Garton
23 hours ago, John Garton said:

Suggestion for the Team, in the same way that we have a "Like" button could a "Hate" button be added?

 

This of course, was a tongue in cheek suggestion.

 

"why not be open or something to hide whenever suggestions come up people are quick enough to slate others if they don't like what they here ."

 

"on one pic of a attraction totally disagree"

 

I would have liked to answer, but sadly I have not got a clue what these posts mean. 

 

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